Kindred Discussion *** SPOILERS ***

[ArgyrosfeniX]

Someone asked if it was okay to create a topic for a book discussion that included spoilers. Just make sure the title has SPOILERS in it somewhere, so people clicking on it have some warning.

That being said, here's such a topic!

Have fun!!

(feel free to discuss Kindred here now )

[brainsniffer]

Groovy, thanks ArgyrosfeniX, that's very cool of you. I just didn't know if it was safe to speak up in that thread of that or make something new, but this is much safer.

Btw, just finished the Dead End collection and wowsers, what a way to tie that one up too! Very cool ending that covered a lot.

Anyway, back to this... so yeah, shipping Dare/Tam Unit isn't so silly now I guess - thanks for that Taman! Although, you've gotta feel for the girl feeling for Dare like it seems she does, only to have the chipper simulacrum take that spot.

So, one thing I'm not clear on - whether it's supposed to be resolved, or what y'all think - the Dareg that showed up in Dareg's place near the end, that had the invisibility powers... do we think he's maybe evil or maybe not - it seems like we're giving him the benefit of the doubt - but he said he was following an Eva that was evil... so did we find her, or is she out there still, or was it indeed Eve, who we know isn't evil, so would that make the aforementioned NotDareDareg evil, or...

I mean, there was a lot more conflictedness shown in the way Dare, Zack and Eve approached the idea of there being two sides to this, and whether they may not in fact be on the side of life the whole time, but be more in the middle of the argument - but erring to the side of life, as they have friends... so this NDD see's Eve as evil, or if there was in fact an evil Eva out there...

Also, waiting for someone to decide to just invoke that "blow up the enemy" by triggering the explosion in their spinal devices. I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned. Although, not all of the enemy are the enemy either.

The bits with Hess were brilliant, and loved the character of Erath, and eager to see where he goes... wouldn't be surprised if that kid got his own book exploring the worlds of his people and tracing back some of the enemy.

All in all, this book was so brilliant - couldn't put it down for a second, and just continued to impressed how the story seems to be so well woven. The new Pods were a nice thing too, especially the way they joined to other holes in space and Dare's new teleporty powers, and bringing back that he could be hurting his power going at things the way he is, and the loneliness in his powers... that there are severe downsides the whole way through... for being a complete superhuman, the balancing human downsides are really well done.

[Ronald Dukarski]

Finished Kindred. loved it!!! Wiil be leaving a review after figuring how to get everyone to read ALL of the series (plural !) so they too can get full enjoyment from it. The inexpensive compilations being sold should make it easier, so I'll start with that. But now, two questions: 1) is a Gwen Farris next? And B) if we generally get trilogies and this is the third for Dareg, where does the young Ancients go next? Some one we know? Or some one new? Do we get a main character, or just a continuation of the story? There was a good set up to follow up on Uni, our new energy being. It would allow additional characters to be introduced into the Young Ancients reality, from other realities on Mars and the moon to further integrate the multiple storylines. So, maybe that's my prediction. Or maybe I'm full of it. Yeah, probably that one. Any way, thanks Dale it was an enjoyable two and a half days! Can't ask for more than that... Well I can but I'd just be greedy!

[Korwin]

I think the stated reason of the enemey is a scam.
There might be insane entities at the end of times in some universes, but I doubt all of them are insane.

I'm not even convinced that the enemy is from the end of time, they might also be from before the beginning of time.
(But thats only because of the 'Old Ones' name from the Gwen timeline.)

Just saying, I think we will see some new ground breaking information in the future.

As for the limitations of magic, I always wonder if the growing pattern will hold longer. Since the Fast ship's are reported to get faster/stronger over time.

[David]

I think only half are insane. I can't remember exactly how it was said, but I got that impression from alternate places, specifically book four.

[qHnED7SnYgQs]

In the conversation between Dareg and Eve towards the end of the book, it was already pointed out that there are people that fell relatively ok just sitting alone in the void (Dareg and Eve being among them), and people that just can't deal with it.

It's the only the later ones that go insane at the end of time.

Also, it's to be assumed that anyone that can already travel between realities (which pretty much means could also travel through time if desired) is not going to be among the group that goes insane, or, at the end of time, feels sufficiently strongly that it's desirable to stop reality from ever existing, otherwise reality would already have been unmade.

[qHnED7SnYgQs]

In regards to "limitations of magic".

It's clear from the books that people that project their field outward, either for the creation of field devices ("amulets") or as direct effect, are damaging their own field in the process. But the field of the person recovers over time.

Probably because there is some interaction between the physical structure of the baryonic matter that makes up the person and the field.

If the field is sufficiently damaged, it can affect the matter that makes up the person (e.g. Tor thinking his body would just "falling apart" if he damages his field further). Also, we've clearly seen that making changes to the field of a person can change the physical structure of that person over time (the whole making people Immortals thing).

The same is obviously true in the reverse, even if Tor hadn't found a way to purposefully repair his own field through meditation, the books said his field would have been restored on it's own just given enough time.

This ability, a persons field repairing itself over time after being damaged, is the core of what makes noram-style "magic" possible. Without it, builders would just spread their own field out over the devices they create and fade away.

If the physical structure of an object and it's field are out of sync, they both change towards each other to get back in sync. Potentially damaging both in the process. For living things, this process is complicated by the processes that go on purely on the "baryonic matter" side of things. The usual cell growth and repair mechanisms and so on. So as the field influences the physical matter to match, and the physical matter influences the field to match, the normal repair mechanism of a living body keep repairing the damage, so that the point where the field and physical structure once more are in sync is going to be much closer to whatever the physical structure is than what the (damaged) field was.

What (mostly) Timon does to change people via field manipulation must involve very strong, but very localized changes to the field, and maintaining this changed field sufficiently long, so that the field then produces precises changes in the genetic structure of the affected person, which then co-ops the normal biological processes to drive the final state (where field and physical structure are fully in sync) towards the desired outcome.

The issue with field devices is that their field is not in sync with the structure of the baryonic matter, and there are no biological process operating in the matter that keep driving it towards a specific desired structure.

After impressing a static field on such an inanimate object, the field and physical structure start moving towards each other to get back into sync, which as the process continues, damages the field structure to the point where it can no longer maintain its desired function. The physical changes that have been made to the object during this process are relatively meaningless as they don't result in a "active" structure with meaningful physical processes going on purely on the physical side.

Interestingly, that means that it would make sense to "recycle" failed field devices by again imprinting the same field pattern on it, as the physical structure has already shifted a bit towards being in sync with that pattern, so that the new mid-point between the field and physical structure is now closer towards the desired field pattern. Every time this is done, the resulting field device should last longer before failing. And in an idealized case should at some point result in a field device that last "forever" if the mid-point where physical and field structure are in sync represents a point where the field structure is still sufficiently intact to maintain the desired functionality.

In the "real (fictional) world" such an idealized case can't actually exist, as it ignores external influences and only takes structural and field changes from the syncing process into account.

Fields are changed by interactions with other fields. Wood absorbs and releases moisture and biological decay processes change its structure. Pure metals are full of free electrons whizzing about, and can relatively easily be deformed by by external forces and can oxidize. "Stone" (compressed aggregations of minerals) is structurally more stable, but is still subject to structural changes from external forces.

Which explains why field devices on stone last longer than on metal, which last longer than on wood.

With wood, as the physical and field structures move towards equilibrium, the physical structure imposed by the field constantly gets damaged by external forces, moving the equilibrium point more and more towards random noise.

With stone, they changes to the physical structure imposed by the field remain largely undamaged by external forces, keeping the equilibrium point where physical and field structure are in sync mostly unchanged.

Fields created using the "growing" method are not static fields, instead, they are dynamic fields that interact with themselves, with growth (and to some level self-repair) mechanisms build in. As such, they are basically the field equivalent of living matter.

So yes, grown field devices should be able to maintain their field structure such that they can keep performing the desired function for longer than a static field.

But, just like a (non-"Immortal") person, they don't last forever. If the self-repair mechanisms aren't 100% perfect, un-repaired damage, both from external forces and the syncing process, will accumulate over time, until the field can no-longer maintain it's desired function. Basically dying from old-age, just like most living things. I can also see the possibility of developing the field equivalent of cancer if the growth and/or self-repair mechanism encoded in the field are damaged in the "wrong" way.

Another issue might be that as the physical structure is changed to be more and more in-sync with the field (with the final equilibrium point being very close to the desired field structure as the field keeps repairing itself while the physical structure syncs with it), it might get harder for the field to modify itself, locking the field down more and more.

With improvements to these growth and self-repair mechanisms for fields, it might become possible to essentially create "immortal fields", equivalent to the "immortal" genetics on the physical side.

I can also see the possibility here for the creation of much longer lived "static" field devices.

The food units, maker devices, and new armor, have shown that it is possible to create fields that manipulate baryonic matter very fast with extreme precision (getting every single molecule in food exactly right to produce perfect smell, taste, consistency, and nutritional content, without creating any toxic or otherwise undesirable compounds).

So if the correct physical structure for a desired field can be determined, it should be possible to have a special "maker" field device produce objects that already have the (at least close to) correct physical structure for the specific desired field. This should make imprinting the field into the devices much quicker and easier, and result in objects that can maintain the desired much longer, as damage is limited to external forces instead of the syncing process.

[qHnED7SnYgQs]

As addition to my previous post... Tor *may* actually already have created an "immortal" dynamic ("living") field.

The "dragon amulet" he created in Counselor (Book 5) for Trice to suppress her combat rage activation command line power.

It is not a field attached to any physical object, instead the field pattern just exists in the vacuum inside the shield effect shell it projects to provide a visible/touchable object to interact with.

For this to work the shield shell must do a very good job of protecting the contained field pattern from external influences, and the field pattern itself must constantly refresh and repair itself so it doesn't just decay into the nothing of the vacuum.

[Korwin]

[David]

So far that's true. I'd say he just hasn't hit the limit yet.