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Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

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qHnED7SnYgQs
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Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

Unread postby qHnED7SnYgQs » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:19 am

I find myself somewhat disappointed by the apparent lack of progress that has been made with Noram style "magic" in the decade since the founding of Harmony.

Cordes dumped all his knowledge about computers into Tor (which I assume survived the removal of Cordes). The "scientific method" should be known and understood in Noram.

Even if neither is true, given the number of Austrans that moved to Harmony (where life is essentially completely based on "magic") and the mention (I think in "Strange Land") that testing centers where being planned/started in all lands to look for more builders, I find it hard to believe that in over a decade, nobody with a general scientific background or a background in software development has become a builder and tried to apply their prior knowledge and mindset to building?



I mean, focus stone tiles, with a glowing sigil, worn as amulets is still the be-all and end-all of field devices?

Nobody has thought to do any research on why there is the progression/inverse-progression in field stability/easy of imprinting from wood over metal to stone?

Just to throw one possible theory out there:

In regards to field stability:
- wood simply decays in many ways over time, damaging the contained field
- free electrons in metals (just moving a piece of metal in earths magnetic field is enough to induce localized electrical flows) weaken and damage the field over time
- most "stone" is made up of grains of different mineral crystals that are very stable over time and are mostly isolators, minimizing field damage from electron flows, oxidation and general decay

In regards to ease of imprinting:
- stone, made up of grains of different minerals at various alignments results in a quite non-uniform structure that might make imprinting difficult
- metals are relatively uniform, with only the grain structure/alignment interrupting this uniformity, making it easier to imprint a field
- wood might appear as the odd one out here, with people probably thinking that it's structure is rather chaotic, which shouldn't allow for the easy imprinting of a field.

But wood is actually 40-50% cellulose (higher when dried). Cellulose is a straight chain polymer, no coiling or branching occurs, and the molecule adopts an extended and rather stiff rod-like structure. The multiple hydroxyl groups on the glucose from one chain form hydrogen bonds with oxygen atoms on the same or on a neighbor chain, holding the chains firmly together side-by-side. These cellulose crystals are aligned along cell walls, which in turn are aligned along growth lines in the wood, resulting in an overall surprisingly uniform structure.

Furthermore, the 6 atom ring at the core of each glucose unit that make up the cellulose polymer might be especially suitable for holding a field.

Combine a "Maker" with someone that has in-depth chemical and physical knowledge, and there should be pretty much no limit in what materials can be created consistently and repeatedly to allow for an in-depth scientific exploration of the properties of different materials in regards to field stability over time and ease of imprinting.

Even exotic composite materials, like exactly aligned carbon fullerene onions enclosed in a perfect wurtzite crystal would be no problem producing and should lead to the development of a material that has improved field stability and ease of imprinting compared to the current standard materials and achieve these properties in a significantly smaller package then the currently used tiles (e.g. 1/16th inch / 1.5 mm cubes, lets call them "kernels", with Tiera's implanted ceramic needle field devices, we've seen that such small devices can work and be long-time [over a decade] stable).

For mass copying, a small box of these, perfectly aligned, should be much easier to imprint than a room full of somewhat haphazardly placed focus stone tiles...



Next, if you are already going to the trouble of generating the second field for the glowing sigil, it would make sense to go all the way and make that second field something more useful.

Instead of just a glowing sigil, make it a full shield, with a hard core protecting the material holding the fields and a variable "soft" outer layer that like the clothing amulets can be used to generate various wearable forms, amulets, rings, bracelets, earrings, nose studs, whatever...

After the initial imprint that 2nd field would still be inactive, waiting for an "initialize" intent that would then (non-reversibly) activate the hard shield.

Lets call this a "shell" field.

For builders that can't handle placing two fields on the same object, it might even be possible to place the two fields on two different kernels, then place them together and initialize the shell, which then encapsulates both.



This approach (small kernels, protected by a shield shell) should also make implantable field devices a lot easier. (And why haven't they become common yet? Especially in space where you want to make it pretty much impossible to accidentally take of your space shield.)

The implantation locations mentioned in the book for Tiera should probably be reconsidered, I could imagine a lot of survivable (with healing device, and why isn't there an auto-activating version of that yet?) damage that would end up stripping the implanted field devices from the body.

The best implantation location might be inside the skull (I mean inside the bone, not in the hollow enclosed by the skull). If you are losing a part of your skull, your brain is probably spread around as well, in which case the lost of any implanted field device is the least of your worries.



A few times, quite early in the series even, the possibility of multiple builders working together was mentioned. But at most we've seen one (experienced) builder checking on what another (relatively new) builder is doing and maybe correct some errors in the new build.

What I would expect to see, especially with longer builds done by non-improved/immortal builders would be groups of 3 builders, with 2 starting initially, then every 8 hours one builder being replaced by the idle one, allow for 16h work and 8h rest, while continuously having 2 builders working together on the new build. (Or make it 17h work, 7h rest, with 1h transitioning periods when all 3 are working together at each switchover.)

This should allow "normal" humans to work on high complexity builds or mega copy operations without health risks.

With the great influx of new "non-immortal" builders, at a minimum from Vagus, I can't believe nobody has tried this yet?



We've seen "grown" builds that keep increasing in field strength over time, for many months even beyond the point where the growth of the build has been steered by the builder. Does that mean these builds are, or it would be possible to create variations that are, effectively self-reinforcing and, baring physical decay of the underlying material that holds the field, can remain stable pretty much indefinitely?



This next might be a case of "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail", but I'm a software developer, and the process of "building" a new field looks very much like software development to me.

In which case I would think that builders might profit from adapting some software development methodology.

Right now, each build, even functionally similar ones like the magic dishware and towels, are pretty much from scratch, special purpose developments. Yes, different builders look at each others work and learn techniques from each other, but they still have to develop from scratch the implementation of how to apply that technique.

Instead, it might be possible to create a modularized framework, as a library of field patterns with well-defined interfaces (which, as necessary, depend on each other).

I can sort of envision all the high level builders getting together, entering a shared trance state and together work out the initial modules/components and modularized versions of all their unique builds.

e.g. to create a magic dishware build, you would take the "solid light projection" module (solid light is what I tend to call the "material" that the magic houses and such are made from), a definition of what the plates look and feel like in a format compatible to that module, the "intend on/off" module and some minimal code to glue it all together. If you want magic towels, you do the same, just with a different dataset that defines the object.

If you want to be able to recolor your plates with mental commands, add the "mental interface" module and hook it up with some glue code. If you want your plates to remember their color between activations, add the "data storage" module and some more code to glue it all together.

The resulting builds are probably going to be more complex (because the generalized modules might contain more functionality than is being used). But once the builder is familiar with the patterns of the used modules, it should become easier and quicker to do new builds that just connect existing modules in new and unique ways (plus some data and glue code) instead of starting from scratch every time.

In parallel to current day software development, where you can either compile your program into a single monolithic executable, or where you might refer to a number of external dynamic link libraries or shared objects, it might be possible, especially for prototyping of new builds, that you have the different modules all on individual kernels (mass copied ahead of time) and then just build a new "orchestrator" kernel, that when initially activated connects to the required modules (which need to be nearby), initializes them with the necessary initial parameters, connects them together and from then on orchestrates their interaction (plus whatever unique functionality the build might require beyond hooking existing modules together). Finally the whole constellation of kernels is encased by a shell module, protecting the kernels and providing an easy to handle object.

This might even allow single person mass copying of extremely complex devices, by making individual mass copies of all required modules, plus the unique orchestrator. Where each on it's own is simple enough to mass copy.

It could also greatly reduce the time needed for a mass copy of a new build, as you just need to copy the orchestrator, and can use stockpiled copies of the individual modules.

It would probably be best if the orchestrator, on initial initialization, has the ability to detect required uninitialized modules nearby, attract them, float up into the air a bit, then activate the shell module to encapsulate just the required modules. That way you would just mix the required number of each module, plus the orchestrators together and send an initialize intent to the pile, ending up with a pile of shell encapsulated, assembled field devices.



There is probably more, but that's what came to mind just while writing this post. I think with a full decade, in an environment that's basically completely dependent on magic, and people with a chemistry/physics and programming background becoming builders (which I would think is almost guaranteed if you start searching for potential builders in Austra), all of the above should be achievable given anything that we've seen about building in the 16 books for the First Cycle.



But all we get to see is basically minor evolutions of things that already existed at the time Harmony was founded. There are incredible advances in the state of the art of Noram style magic in the 4-6(?) years from Tor's first Build to shortly after the founding of Harmony. And just when everything comes together to create the perfect environment to kick further development of Noram magic up another notch... everything seems to stagnate?

Even the Tam-unit is just a minor evolution and combination of field devices that have already existed for almost a decade. As stated by the Tam-unit itself, even the "intelligence" part of the Tam-unit is just a copy of an existing field (Taman's) with some variations.

I guess it does raise some interesting question, which nobody seems to have asked yet.

Is it possible to make a full copy of the field of a person and then have a full functional "shield" body for this copy?

We've seen that "building" weakens the field of the builder, but there are natural processes (which can be speed up with the right trance state) that reinforce and rebuild the field of the builder over time, preventing the accumulation of damage from building (within limits).

Does a copy of a persons field inherit these self-reinforcing properties? (If not, could they be added by a similar process as normal "grown" builds use?)

Would a copy of the field of a person then be able to change, grow and develop independently as a person over time (and baring physical decay of the material holding the field copy, doing so indefinitely)?

Would a field copy of a builder be able to be a builder?

(edit by MarciaA to add the smilies... this was well thought out and fun to read, and I couldn't resist adding those. Don't be offended please, it wasn't intended that way!)



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Re: Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

Unread postby PS Power » Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:24 pm

If putting Gilligan in the hut for three days would allow the others to build a raft to get them off the island, you HAVE to get that skinny dude out of there! So too, if you can simply give your characters the powers to do the one thing it would take to defeat the enemy, then you need to either not do that, or not allow it to happen instantly, at any rate. Only right before the story is over, or else people will be sitting there the whole time asking why they didn't just do X three books ago.



The reason here is simple really. The growth being shown is about the characters. Not the magic or technology. That is just a tool to allow that progression to happen.



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Re: Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

Unread postby David » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:31 pm


One of the stressed things in the stories is to not let people get too dependent on building. If things become too easy the stagnation falls from the tech to the human spirit. Just a thought. They seem to only build what is needed for the most part.

Also, the main protagonist in this first book was NOT a builder, how do you know they aren't doing those things already? It's not as if he went around questioning his family and other builders on what they were working on.

Another thing is lack of adversity. Adversity is what drives breakthroughs. On the moon they "Work" simply to stave off boredom, all their needs and wants are met. Everything is free and their are no shortages. That isn't a situation which spurns growth.

So I guess I have two points. The book has a limited point of view, who knows what's going on that was outside the protags point of view, secondly life on the moon is easy enough already.

These aren't my ideas either, unless I'm picking something up from the books that Dale didn't intend.

Last point, although interesting the idea is to use building to get them through the troubled times. The aim is temporary, and to build true buildings and get farms going again. I'd think the fields last long enough for that, do they really need one that lasts forever? If they need to they can always make a new one.



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Re: Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

Unread postby MarciaA » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:49 pm

Okay I had way too much fun adding smilies to the posts.........
no offense meant to anyone, the mood struck me in an overwhelming way so I went with it.
If it bothers you, let me know, I'll re-edit to remove it all........



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Re: Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

Unread postby Ronald Dukarski » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:32 am

The only thing I may have to contribute to this discussion is there seems to be a cultural mind-set to the people (whether intentional or serendipitous) to leave well enough alone. Consider in the very first book, Tor is hand washing in a stream and decides that there should be a better way to wring out and/or dry clothing. He doesn't think of ways to wash them easier, merely take the water out. Back then, we had a similar discussion. It was pretty much agreed that magic should have had an immediate impact to broaden the technical base of the planet. But apparently, a cultural or innate mind-set imbedded by Burkes, the Green Man prevented the wide-scale proliferation of building as it was considered detrimental to society as a whole. Things changed with the new immortals, however, it was brought back in check by about the fourth book, I believe, by both Burkes and Tor because magic was getting out of control, "too many magics" for the good of mankind. So, normal distribution curves seem to be of no use here. And as this particular book points out, command-line intentions are very influental (Tor with the Cordes mind set had had it back then). So it's possible it (the dissemination of magic) may be under an artificial constraint in this case.

Or... that's the way the author decided his world should be.



Love isn't blind-it's retarded. Charley Harper

In life, being dead, kind of means you lost. Tor

Don't drink the water, fish f**k in it. W. C. Fields
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Re: Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

Unread postby PS Power » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:51 am

I'm also using fax machine logic.

The fax machine was invented int he 1960's or so. It didn't really make a big impact until the 1980's.

But we had everything we needed to make one in 1911.

Just because a thing is possible from our perspective, now, doesn't mean a society will actually discover or invent it on the same schedule.

Also, I'm sitting on six or seven inventions that we simply don't need yet, but which are very possible right now. There isn't any reason for them, so creating them doesn't really make a lot of sense...



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Re: Disappointed by lack of progress in Noram style "magic"

Unread postby RyanM » Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:17 pm

Since I'm also a software developer, I'll add my 2 cents:

We can look at the the current state of building as the 1950's era computing; Everything is a specialty system with no unified language. In essence, they're still using assembler to write their programs. It's slow, tedious, error prone, and highly volatile.

Once schools across the world are teaching building to people with a high degree of success, you might see a move to the next iteration: procedural languages. Perhaps even cooperative building where people can write subroutines that others can utilize easily. Since procedural language are far easier to learn and more people will learn how to build without needing to know a thing about the low level language under the covers.

Then the next iteration would come into play, something analogous to Object Oriented Programming/Design. Now one person could write an entire modules for user interaction that's easily used by other builders. Someone else could write a module matter creation, energy transference, etc. Before you know it, nearly anyone can be a builder so long as they know how to interface the various modules.




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